Sound Judgment has become a quest to identify the universal qualities and skills of "hostiness." If I’m on a quest, Pabel Martinez is on a mission—in his case, to redefine professionalism and to empower members of Latinx community to be their authentic selves 100% of the time. He’s sharing stories of Latinx professionals who are tired of playing the assimilation game in corporate America. Like him, they are rebelling against it, after lifetimes of pretending to be other than who they actually are. And we discover a new hostiness quality: That who we are as human beings has everything to do with how we show up on the mic, and whether—or not—we connect to our audiences.
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Pabel Martinez is a native New Yorker, storyteller, and former tech executive.
Throughout his career, Pabel struggled balancing two jobs…tech employee and actor. As an actor, he would focus on assimilation because he was trained to believe that many parts of his identity were unprofessional. Pabel would dedicate days out of the week to study “white popular American culture” and memorize scripts he would later use for work conversations. He knew that talking about Bad Bunny and shows like Insecure would not make him relatable. Instead, he would binge-watch seasons of Riverdale since it would help him build relationships with colleagues and senior leaders. The assimilation became overwhelming, and it was at the expense of his identity & mental health. As a result, Pabel's mission in life became redefining professionalism by empowering authenticity. In 2020, he launched his company, Plurawl, to bring this mission to life.
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Elaine Appleton Grant
Pabel Martinez is a New Yorker, a former tech executive, the host of the ¿Quién Tú Eres? podcast, and a rebel. A year ago, he posted his salary on social media. That move shocked people and it went viral. Three million people saw his salary. Later, he went public with his story about quitting his lucrative high-powered job at TikTok to recover his authenticity, his mental health, and to fight for equity for the Latinx professional community.
With his irreverent, lively style, Pabel gets more fans for his podcast every day, fans who never miss an episode. And maybe that's because his show asks listeners the question Pabel was asking himself and his guests. ¿Quién Tú Eres? Who are you? Let's see the real you. And let's stand up for the real you.
Meet the man who understands that we all need the encouragement of others to do hard things—and that hosting a podcast can help. Pabel Martinez, next on Sound Judgment, where we investigate just what it takes to become a beloved podcast host by pulling apart one episode at a time together. I'm Elaine Appleton Grant.
Ever since I talked with Pabel, I find that his conversation keeps popping into my head. He talks freely about rebelling against the unwritten rules that keep people of color from being themselves in the corporate world. Rules that govern fashion, hair, choices of pop culture and style, and what he saw as an unwritten rule that was hurting his community: not talking about money. That decision to go public with his salary? He made it on Latina Pay Day, a day designated to draw attention to the dramatic pay inequity between Latinas and white men. Those posts evoked a wide range of reactions, from gratitude—some people thanked him for helping them negotiate higher salaries—to anger, from corporate executives who said he should have kept it private. We jumped right into the big stuff.
Elaine Appleton Grant
So Pabel, there are a lot of ways for hosts to make shows that stand out. And one of them is to go on a mission, to go against the grain and call out something that needs attention and try to change it. And am I right that that's really where you're coming from?
Pabel Martinez
A hundred percent. I very early on decided to make it my mission to redefine professionalism. And it was personal but it's been fascinating to see how many people resonate with it, and because people resonate with it I think that's really been the catalyst for the growth.
Elaine Appleton Grant
Uh-huh. Tell me about the growth actually.
Pabel Martinez
It's wild to think about it, but the ¿Quién Tú Eres? podcast is in the top 2% of all podcasts globally. It's been because—one, a lot of people resonate with the mission. But the stories that we share on the podcast, a lot of them go untold out of fear. And if they are told, these workplace experiences, they're often told anonymously. So it's really like one of the first times where people are talking openly about their experience around professionalism versus authenticity.
Elaine Appleton Grant
Well, let's talk about that. What I'd love to do is just have you, you know, sort of briefly sum up the origin story of the podcast and give a little context for listeners who may not have heard it.
Pabel Martinez
It's fascinating. When you look at the data, it says that 76% of Latinos at work suppress parts of their identities. 76%, that is three out of every four employees. And when you look at the data, a lot of times it referenced well, why do they hide their identity? What are they trying to align to? And it's often to align to white male standards, because when you think of the word professionalism, or executive presence, that's what you often think about.
I have been trained to believe from friends, family, academic institutions growing up that who I am, as an individual—many parts of my identity—were unprofessional. From the high school I went to that told me I had to shave all the facial hair below my earlobe, from them banning traditional Black hairstyles like afros and braids and dreads and locs, to that being reiterated when I entered the workforce and I didn't see a lot of people that looked like me. And people that did look like me, they were faking it just as much as I was. So I wanted to create a podcast that showed people that you didn't necessarily have to assimilate to do your best work. So every week we have a new guest talk about that assimilation journey, early on, and then eventually when they got to the point where they realized that it was just a waste of time.
Elaine Appleton Grant
So you were a global account director at TikTok. And I know about a year ago, you chose to make your salary and your bonuses and your title and your location public, and that on social media, and that went viral.
You'd already started the podcast though. So tell me about the connection between going public like that and the podcast itself.
Pabel Martinez
Yeah, so the podcast launched in 2020. And again, if you go back to the data, 76% of Latinos suppress parts of their identities at work—I was part of that 76%. And I went to the extent of deep assimilation. Like I used to study—I used to dedicate days out of the week to study white popular American culture, because I thought it would help me avoid racism and microaggressions and all of these things, right? And—
Elaine Appleton Grant
I read that about you. And I thought that was utterly fascinating that you actually made it a conscious choice to study that. That was amazing, but go ahead.
Pabel Martinez
Yeah, and the fascinating thing is that I'm not alone. A lot of people do it, they just don't talk about it. But I would tell people about these experiences and they would give me the same reaction. They would be like, oh my God, it must just be you doing this.
And I was like, oh my God, you don't even know how different of a work experience it is for me versus you. So that plus the reason I was doing it was because I didn't see people that looked like me being their authentic selves. The representation I saw of people looking like me that were successful were doing the same things. They were lying about their weekends. They were studying white culture. They were doing all these things to—because they thought that's what they needed to do to be successful. So I wanted to show people examples, representation of people being their authentic selves that look like them.
And it started with me sharing other people's experiences, but the more frustrated I became, the more I started sharing my own experiences. And the most popular episodes that I've done on the podcast have been me sharing my own story and experience versus me sharing other people's experience.
Elaine Appleton Grant
That is fascinating. How scary was that?
Pabel Martinez
It's funny because every episode, I would joke with a guest and say, hey, they're not here for me. They're here for—to listen to your story. And one guest at one point said, is that really true? Yeah, you bring on great guests, but people continue to listen to your podcast because it's the same host every episode. They're like, why don't you share more of your experience? Why don't you share more of your story? And I was avoiding it for a long time. To this day I still avoid it.
And I make it a goal of, oh, every month I'm going to do my own story, my own experience of what's happening in my life. But I put that episode off every time. I intentionally share other people’s stories because sometimes it's not easy for me to do it.
That said, I think the more vulnerable I am, the bolder I am, the more fearless I am with my perspectives and the actions that I take, the more that people feel more comfortable sharing their story. So there is a lot of power in that.
Elaine Appleton Grant
Give me an example of the scariest thing that you shared about your own story and the response to it.
Pabel Martinez
Sharing my salary, transparently, is probably one of the scariest things I've done. And for a few reasons. I wrote in that post, no one knew how much money I made, not even my mom. And it's interesting too, because my mom was an administrative assistant for most of her career until she retired. And she used to do my taxes growing up. But there became a point where I had family tell me, stop telling your mama how much money you make. That was just advice that I was given. And it's very similar advice that we receive in corporate, right? So my mom for a long time didn't know how much money I made. My partner didn't know how much money I made. So for the first—I was gonna tell the world how much money I made, which doesn't sound like a big deal, but if you think about it, no one talks about it openly. So my mom swore someone who was gonna show up to my apartment and rob me and stuff like that.
But the bigger fear for me was, oh shit, people have been fired for much less. What if I get fired from my job? What's gonna be the reaction from the executive team? What's gonna be the reaction from anybody? And again, it's not like I'm launching or releasing company secrets. It's just me posting my W-2, essentially. But that was terrifying. I'm telling you, to the point where I didn't poop for the entire week.
Elaine Appleton Grant
Oh gosh.
Was it at all more nerve wracking to talk about it, to use your voice on the podcast, than it was to write about it on social media?
Pabel Martinez
It was, because I had more time and more space to talk about it. And in that post, I talked about a company directly, where—in the LinkedIn post, it was just hey, this is my salary, this is why I'm doing it. I didn't talk about my reception to it because it was too soon. I just did the post.
The podcast episode is more like, this is the reaction that I got from people. So it was nerve wracking. As someone who was still employed at the company.
Elaine Appleton Grant
I mean, eventually you left TikTok and you said publicly, I found a bigger purpose. Was there a connection between whatever reaction these executives had and you finally leaving?
Pabel Martinez
Of course, like I said, there was a consistent theme of companies saying, bring your most authentic self to work. We will accept you for who you are and all these things, yet I try to do it and I don't feel accepted. I don't feel supported. I don't feel safe. Especially in that interaction with the executive. But it was just a continuous feeling of trying to censor me, making me feel ashamed, and all these things. So I was just like, if I really wanna create the change that I wanna see in the world, I'm gonna have to do this on my own terms. So I took the risk and I quit.
Elaine Appleton Grant
Which I'm sure was very scary. Has it been worth it?
Pabel Martinez
I mean, till this day, it's scary. I was at the point financially where I was not only supporting myself really well, but I was paying all my mom's bills too. And yeah, I had to let that go. It was one of the most difficult conversations that I've had to have. It was like, mom, I can't support you for at least a year.
But it's been worth it. The mental health has improved. Overall health has improved. My motivation, my ambition, all of those things.
Elaine Appleton Grant
What a tough—a sort of Sophie's choice in a way, you know, your own mental health, their own mission versus—but you're supporting your mother. That, I just, that must've been enormous. It makes me a little teary, actually.
Pabel Martinez
Listen, at TikTok I used to close—I'm talking about multi-million dollar deals. And it drove zero fulfillment for me.
But I'll tell you, when I posted my salary transparently, for example, and then you get a DM on LinkedIn from a fellow young Dominican, and he says, wow, I never knew that someone that looked like me could make that much money? More fulfillment than I would ever get in a year’s working at one of those companies.
Elaine Appleton Grant
I first heard about you when I read your first person Ad Age piece, which was published in September.
Nancy Reyes guest edited that series. She's CEO of TBWA Chiat Day New York, which is a very prominent advertising agency. And she said, “I stay tuned for every episode of this podcast. Pabel has somehow turned the oppressions we face into a mural of what it's like to be Latinos in the corporate world. Provocative, emotive, and authentic.”
And then you went on to say in that same piece, a couple of really important things. First was, “Even when we build the courage to unlearn what we've been taught, and we embrace our authenticity, we are often met with resistance including and not limited to microaggressions, sexism, and racism. As a result these workplace experiences often go untold. If the experiences are shared then they are typically shared anonymously”—as you just said—“out of fear of judgment or retaliation,” and you went on to say, “The podcast serves as a safe space to share our experiences while educating the world about professionalism.”
Do you ever have trouble getting the guests that you want, especially as your podcast has become more and more popular—guests are likely to think, well, so many people are going to hear my story. I can't tell that story publicly. How are you navigating that?
Pabel Martinez
Great question. And what's interesting is that I have a guest that is going to come on the podcast very soon, who—I had to honor the fact that she wanted to remain anonymous. And I don't do this often. In fact, I've only had one other anonymous person, but I am going to honor it just to reiterate that this is a problem. The fact that this person doesn't want to share their name or face just shows that there's a problem.
But most often people are willing to come out publicly because of the mission and the vulnerability of myself, the host. It's interesting, too; I do a lot of speaking engagements at various companies, a lot of tech companies. And most tech companies, they have these internal services or even hotlines, they'll call it, where if something happens to you, you can anonymously report it. Funny thing about these anonymous hotlines is that underrepresented groups, black and Latinos in particular are under indexed in those hotlines. Why? There's no trust factor.
But these are organizations with billions of dollars in the bank. They can't even create programs to get people to feel safe enough to share their experiences. Meanwhile, by me being vulnerable enough and courageous enough to do a lot of things that I do, without paying them, people are open to just come out publicly and share it on our platform. So I'm very proud of that.
Elaine Appleton Grant
Has anybody ever said no? I just can't do it.
Pabel Martinez
Yes, but not because of the platform of the story more so because of a time commitment.
Elaine Appleton Grant
Oh, really? That's very interesting. I mean—t's not analogous, but it's interesting, I think. A few years ago, I did a series on the Tulsa race massacre for American History Tellers, which—you know, 1921, it's more than a hundred years in history, now. People didn't want to talk about that a hundred years ago. And so I recognize how incredibly difficult this is.
Plus just, I think, most hosts who are dealing with things that are personal, that are emotive, that have to do with our survival and our fulfillment run into this.
Candor is hard. Authenticity is the most used buzzword in podcasting and people throw it around like it's easy. And it's hard.
Pabel Martinez
It's very difficult. I think it's even difficult for you to figure out what that means to you. It's the first question I actually ask in every episode and it's fascinating that for a word that is used so often, not one person has shared the same definition for what it means to them.
Elaine Appleton Grant
I was gonna ask you that. In fact, let me play a clip.
Clip from ¿Quién Tú Eres?
Pabel Martinez: All right, well, let's start off where we always start off, with the word authenticity. For you, when you hear the word, what comes to mind for you? What does it mean to you?
Guest: So for me, authenticity is...being able to be who I am, like truly who I am, and not being reprimanded by it. So I'm not trying to be someone else in order for me to fit in. So that's what authenticity means. It's a word that's supposed to be—supposed to mean, you know, being who you are, but sometimes when you are who you are, you encounter a lot of problems because you're supposed to act a different way in order for you to be accepted.
Elaine Appleton Grant
And you're shaking your head. Tell me what you're feeling as you listen back to that.
Pabel Martinez
The word that stuck out to me instantly when I heard it was being reprimanded.
Elaine Appleton Grant
I noticed that, of course, that you picked up on that word reprimanded. And let me play another clip.
Clip from ¿Quién Tú Eres?
Pabel Martinez: Yo, reprimanded? That's a powerful word. Sounds like you had consequences. What were some of those early experiences, maybe growing up, when you trying to be yourself and you were reprimanded?
Elaine Appleton Grant
There were a couple interesting things about that. First of all is you had to interrupt her to ask that question. You know, just interrupting someone is a cultural thing. Did you have to train yourself to interrupt, that it was okay?
Pabel Martinez
That part is difficult, and I think when interviewing someone or having a conversation with someone, two of the things that are really difficult but needed is being a good listener and picking up on certain words that are said. She went on to explain what authenticity meant to her. I just happened to pick up on reprimanded. So for me, I was like, ooh, that's a follow up question. But also I think some people—some guests—have a tendency to just speak for a long time, whereas, Hey, you already answered the question.
But I don't—I don't know. I feel comfortable doing it sometimes, but sometimes I am conscious of like, Oh my God, I'm a man. This may be triggering to her if I interrupt right here, but it's so important to the conversation, I need to do it because we have to talk about it ’cause you just mentioned it! So it is a little push and pull, of an internal dialogue that I have with myself.
Elaine Appleton Grant
Yeah, that's interesting. I hadn't thought about it from the perspective of a man talking to a woman, but you're absolutely right. And it's very conscious of you to even think of that piece of it.
I was thinking more that, you know, we're all trained to be—especially as professionals—we're all trained to be very polite. And politeness, in my view, gets in the way a fair number of times of serving the listener, especially because guests often do have that tendency to go on and on and on and on and on. It's like, oh my God, why didn't this person take control of this conversation?
But more than that, that I found very interesting, is that you went directly to early experiences. And I have a clip on that.
Clip from ¿Quién Tú Eres?
Guest: So I go in there and I see that you have—there was a communications major and then a hospitality major. And I always lean into communication. I wanted to have my own TV show. And I remember going back to my grandmother and saying, well, I think I found what I wanted to do. I want to be on TV. That's what I want to do. I want to have my own show, I want to interview people. And I remember she looked at me and she told me, well, why do you think you're going to have a chance on TV? People like us are not on TV, right? And that was kind of my first instance in me knowing that because I looked a certain way, or—I couldn't be authentic. In order for me to fit in, I needed to choose other types of professions. And that was one of the beginnings—oh, there was an earlier beginning before that. Sorry.
Pabel Martinez: Wait, but what does she mean by people like us, though? Because you were living in the—
Guest: Afro-Latinas! Black woman in a Hispanic community.
Elaine Appleton Grant
How does that feel?
Pabel Martinez
Damn. That was a good episode. All right.
Elaine Appleton Grant
I neglected to ask you, which I usually ask right from the get-go—is tell me an episode that you either loved or that was very challenging to make. And why did you select this particular episode as one of a couple that you offered?
Pabel Martinez
Oof, yeah, that was a good episode. But I'm also thinking like, damn, I interrupt people a lot.
Elaine Appleton Grant
In a great way, in a great way, actually. I mean.
Pabel Martinez
Thank you.
Elaine Appleton Grant
Yeah, I think it's valuable.
Pabel Martinez
I think part of my anxiety is that like, I'm having a thousand thoughts running through my head and I'm just like, I'm so curious. I have to ask like—wait, wait, why did you do that? Wait, what did you do? Yeah, that was a great episode.
And for a few different reasons, I think we touched on a lot of important things. But I think you also asked an interesting question too—is like, well, why didn’t you ask her about that specific instance where she got reprimanded? But one of the things that I'm very conscious of, and is a point that I want to make, is that we've been taught to assimilate before we even start working.
Right? And we've been told what our potential and our cap for success is at a very early age before we start working. And I don't think we talk enough about the impact that our family and our early years have on our self beliefs and what we can do with our potential.
Elaine Appleton Grant
Yeah. And in fact, it’s just quite the story about being eight years old and meeting her mother who she didn't grow up with.
And one of the first experiences was her mother saying, we have to straighten your hair. And saying, but I love my curls, they're who I am. It was very powerful. And that's what I was gonna ask you about actually, is that you're illustrating the squeeze that people of color feel because they're getting the messages from the dominant culture, and a whole bunch of messages from whatever culture they're from, and that's a hard place to be.
And I think in particular, my friend Denise Soler Cox, who was a guest on your show, that's what she talks about all the time, is changing those beliefs that we get and just illuminating it, just talking about it. My understanding is people don't talk about that side—even less than they talk about the corporate culture.
Pabel Martinez
A thousand percent. And the problem, the biggest problem with us and not talking about our experiences is that we feel alone. Right? And when we feel alone, we feel like we're the problem. But we're not the problem.
In that specific instance about her hair, her hair is not unprofessional. Her hair is not the problem. The problem is larger. It's a macro level, society level issue with our current perception of what professionalism is.
I always tell people, look up the definition of professionalism. It's defined as the skill or competence expected of a professional. That's it, skill or competence. So when we tell someone that they look unprofessional, what we're telling them is that, I don't believe you have the necessary skill or competence to do this role.
Elaine Appleton Grant
Yeah, yeah. And I enjoy that part of your episodes where I'm hearing about the family stories. It's illuminating. It's interesting. It's very—they're so real. I love hearing about, here's what happened to me when I was eight years old. Let me take you to that place where my mother is brushing my hair and saying I can't keep my curls. It's very powerful.
What I wanna do is play one more clip, and I think it's maybe at the heart of your whole show. And then I've got a few questions that I always ask.
Clip from ¿Quién Tú Eres?
Pabel Martinez: You have the courage and the audacity to say, no, I am faculty or no, I'm not your assistant. Call me what I am. A lot of people in that survival mode would have been like, just let it go. They would just—don't worry about it. Let me just collect my checks. What gave you the courage to just be like, no. To stand up for yourself? That's something that a lot of people don't do, unfortunately.
Elaine Appleton Grant
So you called that out and you saw that in her—my understanding is she was a professor and they weren't allowing her to call herself faculty. She's got a PhD, and someone was calling her their assistant when being introduced. Just tell me your feelings about that. Just hearing that back. What does it prompt for you?
Pabel Martinez
I cringe because I think about my own experience in times where I wasn't courageous enough to do anything. I went for an interview earlier in my career and I walked in, I got a suit on, looking dapper, and sit down for the interview and the person across from me says, listen, you got all the necessary skills. I'm sure you can do the job. Let me ask you a question. What's your favorite Jordan?
And I was like, what? He was like, yeah, the sneaker. Which one would you wear?
I was like, I mean, that's presumptuous—in my head, I didn't say anything. But I really wanted the job. I was like, oh, you know, the 11s, those are my favorite. Oh, the—I'm sorry—the 12s, the red and white ones. Oh, I would love those, right? And I was like, all right, this is clearly a question that is not asked of everyone. At least that's the story I tell myself. I'm like, all right, he's probably gonna ask me about my experience next. No, he follows up. He says, well, all right, let's say rappers, who would you prefer listening to, J. Cole or Kendrick Lamar?
And I'm like, this motherfucker's bold. But again, I answer the question. Why? I really want that job. We have a conversation, we barely talk about my experience, the interview's over. Now he leaves, the HR person comes in and says, oh my God, how was the four rounds of interviews that you had? Hopefully everything was good. And I was like, oh my God, everyone's so nice here. Why? Listen, we all do things at some point in our career because we need the money. We need the opportunity. I regret that.
I wish I reported him. I wish I did something, because who knows who else that happened to? Who knows how deeper or more insulting some of those questions got? And again, definition of racism, treating someone differently because of the color of their skin. I don't know what the other interviews went like, but I'm pretty sure that that's not a standard interview question. Either one of those. But when I got really comfortable, standing up for myself, being authentic, all those things, I had to let go of the fear of being fired.
That was a big thing I had to let go. I didn't wanna get fired—let's be clear—but I had to let go of the fear. I'm saying, if I report this guy, it's something that needs to be done, even if I have to look for another opportunity.
Elaine Appleton Grant
You have stated, I think it was in that Ad Age article, that basically the thing that's gonna give an individual courage is to show the stories of many people. Which is something, over 100 episodes, that you have done. Have you seen this belief bear out? That it takes all of us to help one person gain the courage to be themselves?
Pabel Martinez
Oh, for sure. I mean, there's that saying, you can't be what you can't see. At various speaking engagements, people have come up to me, people have wrote LinkedIn articles, people have done—a bunch of different ways to communicate the fact that wow, I listened to that episode and starting from that day, I started being more authentic.
It almost gives us permission when we see somebody do it, of, oh, well, if they're doing it, then maybe I can do it. So seeing that representation is very important. And it's not only my job to share the stories and the experiences, but also to scale it to make sure that people see it.
Because what's the point of publishing it if no one sees it or listens to it and is impacted by it?
Elaine Appleton Grant
How has hosting this podcast changed you in ways that you didn't expect?
Pabel Martinez
It's made me more empathetic. I can only hold so many identities, as a Dominican, as a son, as a straight male. There are so many instances of people hiding their identity and suppressing parts of their authenticity that I never thought about. For example, I interviewed one woman, Clara Johnson, who said that for a long time at work she hid the fact that she was a mom. I was like, oh, I didn't know people were hiding that. So stories like that have opened my eyes into what those untold stories and anonymous stories really are. Like, who are those people?
Elaine Appleton Grant
What do you now know about hosting that you didn't know 100 episodes ago? That you wish you'd known?
Pabel Martinez
People really need these stories and experiences. At first, I kind of wanted to tell the stories, one, to feel seen and heard, but also just to let people know, hey, y'all, I'm not crazy. I'm not the only one faking it. Like, listen, coworkers, I told you about my experience. You didn't believe me that there were other people. Hey, there's more people like me.
I didn't realize the impact that it would have on people's careers. Like I said, people don't start doing their best work until they let go of the assimilation because there's an opportunity cost to it. We're literally only performing at maybe a certain number of capacity, half our capacity, because the other half we're spending on being actors, right? So if we stop being that, we can just do our work. So if I realized that sooner, I would have started this a lot sooner as well.
Elaine Appleton Grant
Oh, that's great. And I wanna say that you have made a point that corporate America, especially, is missing out on a lot of talent because of this.
Pabel Martinez
I'm an example. I quit, but there are people that haven't quit that still wanna work at the organization that are doing great work, but could be driving a lot more impact at your organization.
Elaine Appleton Grant
Exactly. Who is your dream guest for Sound Judgment? A host you would like to hear from?
Pabel Martinez
A host that I would like to hear…oh my God, I would like to hear from…I'm forgetting her name, but she's the host—her go to name, stage name, whatever you would call it—is Weezy. She is on the podcast called Whoreible Decisions, and she talks a lot about normalizing conversations around sex. She was doing this podcast for a while while working a corporate job. And just that experience of, Oh my God, were you nervous that people were going to hear it? Were you scared that your boss was going to hear it? All of those sort of things actually blowing up before she quit her job. And what motivates her to continue doing it.
Elaine Appleton Grant
That would be pretty fascinating. Pabel, thank you so much for all your time this morning. This has been just really interesting, and congratulations on the success of the show and the growth of the show.
Pabel Martinez
Thank you. Appreciate for having me.
Elaine Appleton Grant
At the end of every episode, I try to give you just a few of the many takeaways from these conversations. Here are a few from today. You'll find many more in the show notes.
I was a writer long before I came to the audio world. As a producer for an NPR syndicated show, two hours live, every day, with callers, almost 20 years ago, that was exhilarating and scary, and I've loved every day in audio storytelling since then. If you love the creative process like I do, I know you'll love Sound Judgment: the newsletter. Sign up for it at podcastallies.com and never miss an episode of the podcast again. And get a lot more takeaways from my quest to uncover the mysterious qualities of hostiness.
Sound Judgment is produced by me, Elaine Appleton Grant. Sound design by Andrew Parrella. Our gorgeous cover art is by Sarah Edgell. Project management by the inimitable Tina Bassir.
We're off next week for Thanksgiving. I'm very grateful to you for being here with me. Don't miss our next episode on December 1st with the phenomenal Anne Bogel of the wildly popular show, What Should I Read Next? See you then, and happy Thanksgiving.